What does it mean that I don’t have loved ones in Afghanistan or Iraq? I don’t have loved ones in Iraq or Afghanistan–therefore my opinions don’t matter? Are you saying that the only parents who care about their children are those who have children in Iraq or Afghanistan? Are you saying that parents whose children are not in Afghanistan or Iraq have nothing to worry about? Are you saying the grief of parents who lose children in Iraq and Afghanistan is somehow more important and more worthy of concern than the grief of parents who lose children to accident or disease? Just what is your point, anyway?

I “harp on abortions” because Abortion is an issue that isn’t going to go away. I have no desire to exercise “control over women’s bodies”–everything I have been saying implies that women are perfectly capable of exercising control over their own bodies.

Ahem. But seriously, folks–I think Shaun is taking the discussion in the direction it needs to go. We need to think in terms of keeping abortions to an unspecified “minimum,” just as we speak in terms of keeping “collateral damage” to an unspecified minimum. If the horror of “collateral damage” is something we just have to live with in a fallen world, then abortion is, too; if an unspecified “minimum” of “collateral damage” is legal and acceptable, then an unspecified minimum of abortions must also be legal and acceptable if not morally perfect. Americans in 2008 have no business calling ourselves “pro-life.” We are not–no, not one of us.

The US Bishops have made several statements on the War in Iraq being an immoral one that does not fall under the conditions in the Just War theory.
You might not want to paint the three or four extemists bishops with the entire conference.

On another note, there was a story on msn.com today saying that the decline in the housing market was causing a decrease in divorces. I guess some people will use that as a silver lining.

I still plan to vote for McCain, but I have enjoyed the give and take.

I think my point holds, however: the sharpest decline in abortions was under Clinton. You can either interpret that to mean that his policies were good for reducing abortion (stronger economy leads to stronger families, etc.) or that you can’t derive much usable information about the effectiveness of so-called pro-life politicians from such statistics.

Either way, I don’t see good evidence that voting for McCain is going to reduce the number of abortions performed. The bad economy is more likely to increase them, and the culture of death promulgated by his pro-war stance does nothing to encourage us to value life.

I think my general

It’s true that they decreased, mainly under the Clinton years and the last few years of Bush 41 (who was “pro-choice,” if you like that term, though I don’t). That decline halted under the Bush 43 years. Then they started going back up, though you are right that the decreases under 2 pro-choice presidents made up for the increase under the pro-life president.

On another score, that “born alive” stuff from Jill Stanek and co. is a gross misrepresentation, and it drives me nuts. But people who are already inclined to dislike Obama have glommed onto it and spread it far and wide, so that it now has the ring of truth. Sad.

The Catholic Church does in fact take the war in Iraq lightly. Its clerics excommunicate politicans who support a woman’s right to choose; they take no action against politicians who vote to blow up innocent people with bombs. If this is not a blatantly hypocritical double standard, I don’t know what is.

You say you don’t pass judgment, but you have been doing nothing but pass judgment on Obama because he doesn’t buy into Catholic clerics’ assumptions about ‘where life begins.’ Obama is not a Catholic. He is under no obligation whatsoever to be a Catholic, and to write Catholic dogma into US law.

I also don’t think the Catholic Church takes the war in Iraq lightly. After all, both Popes have spoken against it. And yes, it is a life issue. But being that neither party is consistent on the life issue, there is a lesser-of-two-evils choice to make.

If someone has thoroughly thought through their reasons for voting for a particular candidate in this election – even if it’s not the candidate I support, I don’t judge them for that. I would hope to receive the same respect in return.

Shaun, the number of abortions in the country have dropped significanlty from 1.6 million in 1990 to 1.3 Million for 2004-2006 according to Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI).

You know, when our government says “we are keeping collateral damage to a minimum,” what we are actually saying is, “We are ‘only’ going to kill as many innocent people as we have to in order to get what we want.” You cannot with any integrity call yourself “pro-life” and at the same time be ready to drop bombs to get your way in the world. And spare me any “self-defense” self-justifications, or appeals to the “smartness” of our bombs. A bomb blows away everybody within its bursting radius, and when we drop a bomb we are, whether we deign to admit it or not, deliberately aiming at everyone within the bursting radius of the bomb, be they young, old, innocent, guilty, whatever. The “pro-life” position is sheer, self-serving hypocrisy–those who say they are “pro-life” are not, and they have no intention of being so; their professed respect for the “sanctity of life” is no greater than that of a person seeking abortion. The judgment you pronounce on Obama falls just as hard on you.

The Looney Left comment was in regard to the bloggers who spread unsubstantiated lies about Gov. Palin and her daughter. I didn’t intend to include all Democrats or liberals in that description. My political party has its share of Right Wing Wackadoos so I have no delusions that they’re perfect either.

If you investigate Sen. Obama’s actual record on abortion instead of the conciliatory things he says, you will find a radical. That’s not my partisan opinion. Those are documented facts.

And, given your latest qualifiers, I am going to have to stand by my original comment. Calling “mere” political qualification a “yawn” is a shallow and irresponsible way to evaluate candidates–seems to me you’re saying that they’re not “Miss America,” so their enormous qualifications mean nothing. And if that is what you are in fact saying, that is sad. There you all have it. Vote for whomever you wish, I don’t care. This country is going to go where it’s going to go.

http://en.gravatar.com/

and post a picture to your email address.

Most people here probably do have life experience, but when we are on a site for 20’s and 30’s it is reasonable to believe that some people do not have life experience, other than school.

I brought up my background, becasue I believe that may shed some light on why I think the way I do. It has nothing to do with thin skin.

Paragraph 2263 deals with our soldiers at war. You will find “The act of self defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor….The one is intended the other is not.”

This theme continues in paragraph 2265, which says “Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.” This would cover the President, Congress, Soldiers Police Officers and any other legitimate authority.

Paragraphs 2270 through 2275 cover abortion, and even stronger language is used. As a matter of fact, in paragraph 2272 it says “Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime.” Now, if that doesn’t say that God values the unborn life a little more, then I don’t know what you need.

Also, I do not support criminals like Adolph Eichmann. I do not believe that God holds a criminals life at the same level of a inoocent person. Whether that person is a Christian, Muslim, or unborn child.

Finally, I’m not a “kid” and I don’t appreciate being called one. I’m 38 and have been a Police Officer for 16 years. In that time I have accumlated real life experience. Some have been good, others haunting. In your first response you made a personal attack on me, which was uncalled for, and I responded in like. For that I’m sorry, but if this debate is going to continue it needs to be above board.